Category: General

Controversial Debate on Buying vs Renting a House

Posted on by Jagoinvestor

There is a very good debate going on in the previous article I wrote about EMI and how it can change your decisions regarding Home loan and other Loans. A lot of readers have put their thoughts about the Home loan and whether they prefer Buying or Renting, we got a lot of readers who supported Buying and some said renting is better, the conversation went so in the flow that It was worth mentioning here and getting everyone’s point of view.

So please go through these views on Buying Vs Renting and put your comments and views on why you support Buying or Renting. The main points discussed where the opportunity cost, Emotional satisfaction and what are the prospects in return over the long term in real estate.

Should we buy our own house or live on rent?

#Conversation 1

Meena Says’s

I liked this article immensely and echoes my sentiments exactly. I agree with you regarding the way people go overboard on car loans and personal loans to satisfy their craze to keep up with their friends and neighbors. But I would differ on the home loans. For most people, buying a first home is an emotional decision especially if they want to occupy it for personal use. Even if the value of a self-occupied house appreciates substantially, it is only notional as you don’t want to sell it.

I want to relate my personal experience on the home purchase. We are a joint family and about 14 years back, we (my husband and I, both working and earning) purchased a 2 BHK flat in a Delhi suburb for 11 lakhs. We wanted 3 BHK flat badly but could not afford the EMIs although it cost only 2-3 lakhs more. But a few years down the line, both our incomes increased and in hindsight, we repented the decision of not going for the 3 BHK flat.

Now the cost of the same 3 BHK flat is close to 80 lacs which is quite unaffordable. So my point is, while deciding on the home purchase, look for present affordability as well as future earning potential. Also buying a house is any day better than renting it out if you have no plans of relocating to any other place.

My Reply

I agree that the decision would depend on the current affordability and future earning potential. However in your case as you said that you were not able to afford the 3 BHK that time, does it mean that you were not able to pay any EMI if you took 3 BHK or for the next several years. I think the mistake happened in not able to factor out your earning potential of the future? Correct?

I would like to hear your views on why you said that “Buying a Home is anytime better than renting out if you are going to stay at the same place? “. Under what assumptions do you say that? Will it be true for any case, do you also consider the other alternative of investing your money somewhere else? Are you biased towards emotional attachment related to this overall buying home issue?

Meena’s Reply

Hi Manish,

We anticipated that after paying EMIs for 3 BHK flat would have resulted in a liquidity crunch for some time. So we did not take the risk at that time. But what we did not factor in, was that the liquidity crunch would have lasted only for a very little time as the incomes also increased.

When I said that buying is better than renting, is not an emotional decision but a pragmatic one. 1. For one, investing in a house is good for your asset allocation – you are spreading out your investments in Equity, debt, real estate, etc. 2. I do not buy the argument that the money spent on EMIs are better deployed in other investments like MFs or stocks.

At least in metros like NCR, the real estate gives decent returns over the years (a CAGR of 12-15% in 10 years as in my case). 3. Also renting a house has many hassles: Rents increase @ 10% p.a. and you are at the landlord’s mercy as he may ask you to vacate anytime. 4. You get very good tax breaks when you own a property. All these are good arguments for many people to invest in at least one property.

My Reply

Meena

I will agree with some of your points.

1. Asset Allocation: Yes, you achieve asset allocation by investing in Real Estate, but in the early phase if your debt and equity is not high, then even asset allocation is stretched on real estate side much, for example, if one has just 2-3 lacs in Debt and 4-5 lacs in Equity and buy a real estate of 50 lacs, that 85% Real estate, 5% Debt and 10% Equity, though there is some asset allocation, but still most of the portfolio is in Real estate, However, what you say about allocation makes sense when there is good balance between all the 3.

2. This can depend on what kind of investor you are and your concept about “owning home”. For an investor profile like yours, it will actually not makes sense because your priorities are much different, you feel more satisfaction in “owning home” and that your priority, however, there are many readers I have interacted with and know them who are more comfortable with the option of renting out and that makes them more comfortable, It might make sense for them to deploy the EMI – rent money in other investments, at the end if you know what you are doing makes sense.

Also regarding the returns from real estate, there are 25% returns, 15% returns and even 5-6% returns also in the last 10 yrs depending on the location and timings. In the last 10 yrs, the situation has been very different and the next 10 yrs will be different than those, What you get in returns as % terms at the time of selling the property will actually matter and not for the time when you actually Hold. So it’s my rough guess that if you live in the same flat for the next 20-30 yrs and then sell the flat, you will find out that the returns over the period of times will be in single digits, maybe 10% max.

Historically real estate has never given more than 9-10% over the very long term (very long term again) in the last many decades (even centuries), so I dont see why it should be different now. Real estate runs in cycles and they are long, a 10 yr return in real estate can be very different than very long term returns figures, while I say this, I will also say that real estate in India is promising and next 1-2 decades can be exceptional and give returns on the higher side of average till date.

3. Renting has hassles, but has advantages too, just like owning our own house has hassles and advantages of its own, so what you call as hassles might not look like hassles to someone else. It’s different for different people, and everyone is right for themselves.

4. That’s very temporary and introduces some years back only, in the DTC earlier there was a proposal to take the tax breaks out, but with the updated draft, I think it’s still there. no one knows if that will remain or go away in another few years. So tax breaks is not a criteria to decide if one wants to go for real estate or not. You should read subramoney.com real estate articles, you will get a clear picture of what I am saying

Conversation 2#

Pramod Says

Manish,  This is absolutely right. There is a big industry flourishing on “how to get you into debt trap” mantra. The best remedy against this trap is self-discipline. The temptations are high which tends to divert your attention. My wife is asking me to buy own house but I have only one answer that is expensive.

She asks, Property has been expensive for the last 100 years, it will never become cheap. Right, but for me inexpensive means within my reach. The house I want to buy should not come bundled with Headache, High BP and insomnia. What I tell her is that we will buy a house when –

  1. The total cost of the house is not more than my 4 years’ income.
  2. have enough savings to pay a down payment of at least 30-40% of the price.
  3. EMI must not be more than 10 years long.

So now for me to buy a house either prices have to come down or my income has to go up. BTW I am betting on the prices to be stagnant and my income to be growing for at least the next 3 years looking at the supply that is coming up in NCR. In Greater Noida alone where I live, more than 70000 units will be available within 15 km in the next 3 years.

For a car, I prefer a second-hand car from Maruti, It is always good. Most of the depreciation takes place in first two years so let someone else pay for that and you enjoy the ride.

My Reply

Haha, Wife is a very scary word when it comes to the decision of buying Home, I have already talked to several people here who’s wives are bugging them like anything for owning house. You are correct on the “industry working on getting everyone in Debt trap” . over the pricing of real estate, the bubble is strong and I can’t say when it will burst, but whenever it does, it will be very bad day to see.

However, even if it does not burst, Still living on rent is so affordable in today’s times that we can do it for next several years .. after all, if everyone will buy and buy only, who will live on rent?

Pramod Says

Yes, Today I am residing in a flat with a rent of 7000. If I were to buy that it costs 30Lacs. At 80% loan which is 24lacs the interest @ 5% (flat equivalent to 10.5% reducing) comes out to be 10000 a month. Remember I am only talking about interest here so that comparison should be only in the costs. Add society maintenance, maintenance (paint, pest control, seepage repair), property tax, etc to the cost & surprisingly you will find that rent is cheap.

Also if I add the opportunity costs i.e. investing the EMI and front cost minus rent in an MF with only 10% return it will become 1.32 Cr in 15 years so if the flat in which I live today is available for 1.32 crore after 15 years, it’s OK, nothing to worry.

Secondly, detach emotions from house & treat it like a commodity. I often ask people when you dont have a car do you whine about using public transport or do you feel embarrassed about hiring a taxi. If no then why the hell you shy living on rent. Just pay that cheque & save all the bothers of becoming a landlord. One more benefit of the rented house ” You can always change it easily when your astrologer tells you that it is not VASTU Compliant, Will you ever get such wonderful chance to enhance your luck so easily in your own house

My Reply

Pramod, you are one of the rare found die-hard fans of renting. While your views are more biased about renting, which I fully agree. You have taken out some of the things which drive people to own home and that can be pure emotional reasons and its fine.

Some people will feel suffocated enough to live in a rented house and the idea of not having their own home will kill them each day, this idea of renting if better than owning and blah blah will not work on them no matter what one does

While I am with you on renting, the point I want to make is renting vs buying has its own positives and negatives and nothing wrong about it, just that a person should understand which boat he wants to sail in. What do you say Pramod? Read Meena’s comments above, you will get what I am saying

Pramod Says

Manish, I am a fan of renting as long as the rent remains within the 3-4% range of the property value. As I shared with the group I am also planning to buy a house but only when it is affordable. I do not want to spend the next 20 years of my life in stress & sacrifices.

As far as Meena’s points are concerned, I am 120% in agreement with her on-point no. 3 and that is the single most reason that provokes many to buy a house.

But in these days of apartments you can negotiate well as owners know that an empty flat is going to cost him the maintenance and it always depend on your relations as well as the demand-supply situation.

Coming to the other 3 Point –

1- House as an investment, An investment by def. is something which you are going to encash upon value appreciation. So your first house is never going to fit into this axiom. Are you going to sell it after 20 years? 99.9% of people won’t, so what kind of investment?

2. The investment in MF vs Real estate depends upon your kitty. Till the time I have 5-6 lacs accumulated can’t even dream of buying a property even on loan so it always depends on your net worth and no arguments on this point as it is very personal.

3. On this point I agree but again it is emotional and depends on the market. In Gr Noida where I live 50% city is empty so no dearth of flats on rent and I can negotiate.

4. This is one thing that comes as the ultimate logic for buying a house. Let’s see. The principle amount is incl in 80C so after PF, Children fees & insurance what the hell is left. For interest, you can claim tax 1.5 Lacs. Anyone who can buy a house worth 30Lacs must be earning 50K & in this salary, the HRA usually is 10000 approx. so if you take benefits of 1.5l interest payment you have to forego 1.2 lacs benefits of HRA which brings it down to 30k.

Is it worth to buy a house to save a maximum of Rs.9000? Better not watch some crapy movies and save 200 rs on popcorn which is available for 10 Rs outside the cinema hall.

Finally indeed renting and owning has its own pros and cons but here we are discussing these things from personal finance angle not emotional otherwise nothing can replace the joy that I can see on the faces of my family if I take them to Switzerland but can I afford it And also we have seen many old people who spent their life savings owning a house and are still struggling to meet life’s basics in the last stage of the life. Is the house really an investment?

So remember 1st house is always a commodity that you are going to use and 2nd, 3rd …nth property is investment only so do not buy the argument of returns however use these “returns” to check the affordability factor for you say X years down the line if you will still be able to buy that flat.

My Reply

You have made some excellent points . However on one point, I would like to comment. You said

“Are you going to sell it after 20 years? 99.9% of people won’t, so what kind of investment?”

Yes, you are correct that most of the people would not like to sell and will not sell. However if the price of the house is a lot and one has got some good returns like 15-16% CAGR in the last 20 yrs, one will be sitting on a very expensive house and it can act as an emergency fund to them.

If a person house is costing say 2 crores and they can buy the same kind of flat on the other place at 1 crore, maybe in another city, in the times of job crises and loss of income, one has an option of selling the first home and moving to the same quality/size house at other place and cash on the rest in some instrument which will act as a monthly income to them.

So overall I would say, even if a person does not sell a house, he/she has some good unused advantages.

Meena Says

I totally agree with Manish’s views that even if you have no plans of selling your house, you are sitting on a wealth which would give great peace of mind when you have repaid all the EMIs and the house is all yours. My father bought a house in a prime locality in Delhi 40 years back for Rs 30,000.

I calculated the CAGR of the property keeping the current market value in mind. It is a cool 18% return that we see here. If my father had thought like Pramod and other fans of renting, he would have a tougher life as a retired person living in a rented accommodation in some outskirts where rents are cheaper.

I also agree with Pramod that the first house is more a commodity than an investment. But if you are not going to buy the first house, where is the question of buying a second property as an investment. The tax benefits of the second home (if you can afford) is even better. You can get the deduction of the entire interest amt from the taxable income.

So by totally ignoring this avenue of wealth creation, you are missing out a vital component of your asset building. Mind you, I am not discounting the importance of PPFs, MFs, etc here. I am still a great fan of owning the house in spite of very persuasive arguments put forth by Pramod, Manish, and others in favor of renting

Raja Says

Wow!! that’s really an interesting conversation going on here. I just would like to add my 2 cents here.

1. Rental price as we discussed, is a function of demand and supply. Essentially meaning that the renter is not so much in control of how much he might have to pay for the same accommodation on a future date. Just calculating it as 3-4% of the current property price and ruling out the future rental price appreciation doesn’t sound too prudent to me.

When a person buys a house on loan he basically locks in his outgo in form of EMI to a certain extent. Of course, drastic interest rate changes on the upside can alter his calculations.

But I think in the mid to distant future India has a better chance of seeing interest rates softening like so many developed nations than it moving drastically up from the current 10% range. Whereas when someone is depending on the rental mode of accommodation he is exposing himself to drastic future variations in rent.

Take for example the case of a tier-2 city like Bhubaneswar. Not so long ago (around 5 years back) the rent for a decent 2 Bhk used to be in the range of 2-3.5 k. In just 5 years’ time it has skyrocketed to the range of 6-8k for the same accommodation.

The rise is mainly attributed to a rerating of the city as a small IT hub and the factor’s like a growing number of IT professionals employed with Infy, Wipro, Satyam, etc…Now someone who had the affordability to buy a house 5 yrs back but didn’t do it is surely ruing the decision. Of course, property prices too have risen in similar fashion so buying now is even more difficult.

2. I am not aware of the statistics but I guess most of the new houses are bought by people when they are of marriage age. So, probably the age profile will be in the range 26-34. This means the main cash outgo in form of EMI will be over by the time they in the age range of 41-49 (Assuming an average 15 yr loan).

There are a good 16-24 yrs of life left after that (Assuming a life expectancy of 65 years). What are trying to say is with buying a house one will be done with most of the hard work in his prime working years. Whereas rent is a never-ending story, one has to keep on paying the rents for his lifetime.

3. Reverse mortgage – Even if one were to see some bad time during old age reverse mortgage can come to rescue.

4. If the roof over the head is assured it’s easier to live off one’s savings for a few months/years if one were to see bad times in the form of loss of income. isn’t it ?? I mean it’s not impossible to live with just food-transport-communication expenses in the bad times. Add the rental expenses to this list of expenses and suddenly it would seem a little difficult to manage. Of course, the assumption here is the bad times are after one has paid off the EMI’s

Conversation 3#

Rahul Says

Dont quite agree, Manish this time.

Let’s take the example of the couple with the 3-BHK flat. Recently married, they will need a 2-BHK (AT LEAST) in the next 3-4 years, as they will start a family. If they have frequent guests, like parents, (of both husband and the wife), relatives, friends etc., they will need at least 1 bedroom extra, making it a 3-BHK, which is the minimum requirement nowadays.

There can be several other cases requiring such a flat. If either parents’ stay with them, or they plan to have 2 children or they have relatives/guests/friends staying over, a 3-BHK becomes a minimum requirement. Also. once they buy a bigger flat, they will pay it off in say 15 or maximum of 20 years, if not earlier. It takes off a big headache, once you have your roof over your head. No tension till you retire! With property prices rising, it is a good investment too.

On the other hand, if they buy a small flat, in addition to daily problems of staying in a small place, they will have the constant headache of looking for a better, bigger property. And with increasing process, it may not be in their reach too. So, better buy it now and finish it off.

What do you think? Do you have better ideas?

My Reply

Rahul

You have not taken the article in the right sense. I am talking about people who buy beyond their capacity just because EMI is available. I have clearly stated in the article that people who have a requirement and can’t do without buying something have to buy it.

What about the family (only 2 people, married) who can not afford a 3 BHK and can only afford 1 BHK. Dont they get guest or dont start a Family? They do. They make adjustments and how many times do guests come, it also depends on that. I am little crude on this, but I personally would not like to buy a 3 BHK because my guests come for 4-5 days in a year. I rather sleep on the floor and offer them the room. That’s a better choice, at least for the initial years till I am capable of affording a bigger house.

Another point you made was that if the couple is starting a Family soon? Wh y is it necessary to assign a separate room to kids till they are 7-8. You can manage things somehow. We are talking about cases where a person can not afford a bigger house. Dont you think so?

Rahul’s Reply

Manish,

I think if you buy a smaller house and then go for a bigger one after 6-7 years, it may get out of your budget by then, especially the way India is progressing and infrastructure is developing. Practically all Indian cities are bound to expand as more and more people move to the cities and our country becomes an urban country from a rural one.

In such a scenario, it makes sense to accumulate as much land(flats etc.) as possible. It is almost certain that land, flats’ prices will keep rising for the next 20-25 years. Besides, practically speaking, paying off steep EMIs just beyond your reach inculcates a habit of savings too. One has to pay the high EMIs to come what may, so expenditure is automatically checked.

I have seen this in numerous real-life examples I have also seen that having 4-5 residences gives one a feeling of financial security and achievement too! Keeping all this in mind, I’m all in the favor of paying steep EMIs, just within your reach (leaving just enough for daily expenditure and a 5% room for emergency exp.) to accumulate as much land/flat as possible.

and Manish you said about sleeping on the floor when a guest arrives. Really, that is taking it too far! I mean, the house you have should have some spare capacity. Homes in which we live is the best indicator of our financial status. What point is served to be a crorepati, if one has to sleep on the floor if a guest comes in !! And what if by chance there are 2 guests staying overnight?? really embarrassing!

What do you think?

My Reply

Rahul

You took it too literally. Sleeping on the floor means sleeping on the mattress, not “on the floor”. Dont we do it? There will be instances when you have it no matter how big your house is, even if you have 3 BHK, It can happen that you have many guests which can be accommodated on beds and in different rooms, That is the time you always shift on the mattress on the floors, That’s what I meant.

And it depends from person to person what is embarrassing for them or not, I personally would rather be embarrassed squeezing my financial life and being in debt up to neck rather than sleeping literally “on the floor”. Its a personal choice, nothing wrong . What do you say about this?

Let’s Decode Warren Buffet Rules of Investing

Posted on by Jagoinvestor

In this article, we discuss two rules of Warren Buffet and understand their essence. A lot of people in the stock market quote these two rules of his, but the majority of them don’t even understand what they mean exactly, and what Warren Buffet actually tried, to communicate with his rules.

He mainly stressed on “Controlling losses” which is the most crucial point, when one deals with Equity. This can be directly investing in the stock market or through Equity mutual funds. Let’s look at them.

Warren buffets rule of investing

Warren Buffet Rule of Never Lose

Warren Buffet says, there are two rules in the stock market

  • Never Lose Money
  • Never forget Rule #1

Most investors have heard this and have read it a number of times. But for the most part, they’ve taken these words casually and feel that they are just funny lines. How can one never lose and how can that be the single most important rule in the stock market?

The real meaning of these two rules lies behind those words and if we dig a little deeper, we will understand the real value of those rules.

Let me decode it for you here. Read it with all your concentration & focus. Those two rules, really are, worth everything in the stock market.

Stock Market and Warren Buffet

What Warren Buffet really means when he says “Never Lose”?

No one in this world, wins all the time. One loses frequently, and this is true in stock markets also. No one can ever trade or invest in such a way that he/she never loses.

What Warren Buffer actually means by “Never Lose” is that every time we lose, it has to be an insignificant loss. The quantum of loss, has to be so limited or small, that It’s not going to affect us psychologically. If we make a profit of 100 every time and lose 20 or 30 every time we lose, we are actually not losing, if that’s your series of trades.

If you win 100 and lose 20, you are actually only winning 40 for every trade in series of 2 trades… But if you are letting your losses mount and never controlling them, then you are really losing and then those losses can impact you in a big way…

What he means when he says “Never forget Rule number 1”?

By this, he wants to emphasize on how important controlling losses are. Another one-liner of his, that in the stock market and in life you don’t need to do a lot of right things as far as you are not doing a lot of wrong things.

So, as far as you remember that controlling your losses is the topmost rule, you just need to be an average investor or trader and the power of compounding will take care of rest for you. I’ll summarize those rules again for you and what you should actually read in them.

Rule 1: Never Lose (Control your losses, cut them soon enough, so that you don’t feel them)

Rule 2: Never forget Rule 1 (Controlling your losses is the topmost priority you should have. As long as you are able to take care of it, other things will take care of themselves).

Let’s take an example – There are two investors, Ajay and Robert, who both make 1000 trades in their entire life, 500 losing trades and 500 winning trades. Ajay makes a profit of 6% on winning trades and a 3% loss on losing trade.

He has $11.9 Billion dollars in the end. On the other hand, Robert concentrates more on controlling his losses (and hence is able to control his losses up to 1% on average per losing trade) and also makes 5% on winning trades. At the end of his career, he would have $25 billion.

Conclusion

Its only controlling losses which made Robert more money than Ajay. Remember this, you need to concentrate more on “not messing it up” rather than making it “rock”.

Ok , Sir Ji ?

Posted on by Jagoinvestor

There is a very funny conversation regarding Insurance . Do you get these kind of phone calls ?  Put your comments 🙂


Ten ways to terrorize a telemarketer (contribution from a reader “shib “)

  1. When they ask “How are you today?” Tell them! “I’m so glad you asked because no one these days seems to care, and I have all these problems; my arthritis is acting up, my eyelashes are sore, my dog just died.”
  2. If they say they’re John Doe from XYZ Company, ask them to spell their name. Then ask them to spell the company name. Then ask them where it is located. Continue asking them personal questions or questions about their company for as long as necessary.
  3. Cry out in surprise, “Judy! Is that you? Oh my God! Judy, how have you been?” Hopefully, this will give Judy a few brief moments of pause as she tries to figure out where the hell she could know you from.
  4. If ABC calls trying to get you to sign up for the Family and Friends plan, reply, in as SINISTER a voice as you can, “I don’t have any friends… would you be my friend?”
  5. If they want to loan you money, tell them you just filed for bankruptcy and you could sure use some money.
  6. Tell the telemarketer you are on “home arrest” and ask if they could bring you a case of beer and some chips.
  7. After the telemarketer gives their product info, ask him/her to marry you. When they get all flustered, tell them that you could not just give your credit card number to a complete stranger.
  8. Tell the telemarketer you are busy at the moment and ask them if they will give you their HOME phone number so you can call them back. When the telemarketer explains that they cannot give out their HOME number, you say “I guess you don’t want anyone bothering you at home, right?” The telemarketer will agree and you say, “Now you know how I feel!”
  9. Insist that the caller is really your buddy Leon, playing a joke. “Come on Leon, cut it out! Seriously, Leon, how’s your momma?”
  10. And first and foremost: Tell them to talk VERY SLOWLY, because you want to write EVERY WORD down.

How to Attack Back on telemarketers

Pramod Moudgill shares how he attacked back beautifully on telemarketers when he got a call 🙂

  1. I got a call from CitiBank for Credit Card. I asked them to only talk if they are serious about giving me the card because many call but they do not provide the call so I am really frustrated. The lady said sir what is your income. I said 30k a month to which she replied sir no problem we will definitely issue you a card. Are you salaried or … I said I am business man. What kind of business, “Madam main delhi mein auto chalata hoon”. She immediately reacted sir aapka card nahin ban sakta. Now it was my turn and I started, Kyon ji auto mein kya problem hai maam apna auto hai, sari kishten utar chuki hain, maam main bahut honest aadmi hoon, meter se chalta hoon , jab ek 70k ke Bike wale ko card de dete ho to mere paasv to 2lakh ka auto hai. All the time she was trying to speak but I just continued then finally she said sir co. policy nahin hai & again it was me ..”to pehle kyon nahin bataya mere 2 passenger chale gaye, harjana kaun dega meral loss kaun bharega main auto union mein complaint karunga & blah blah blah… & my no. is now free from citibank calls.
  2. I got a call from ICICI bank for personal loan. I asked what is the rate, she said 18% . I asked “madam mere paas 2 lakh hain aap mujh se 15% par le lo. ”
    She said “sir mujhe nahin chahiye” I said please aap holiday jao, LCD kharido & do what ever you want I am giving at only 15% come on.! Then again she said, “Sir maine bataya na mujhe nahin chahiye” Then I said” So who told you that I need one, jo aapne call kiya, aur aap log kya ek baar batane se maan jaate ho. Aap soch lo Iwill call you tomorrow.”

Comments 🙂 ?

JagoInvestor Pune Meet Updates

Posted on by Jagoinvestor

We conducted a Readers meet in Pune on 13th June and the response was amazing. There were around 15-16 people who came amidst mild rain on venue and it started on time. It was nice to see all the participants and their bonding with Jagoinvestor. We had a guest speaker from Ahmedabad and he gave a mind-blowing speech on how to change your psychology about money.

It was a learning experience for me too and It was really incredible to meet and talk to readers face to face and talk to them personally . Every one who came shared their expectations and what they learned from the meet and everyone was very interested in these meets in future. We are planning next meet this Saturday in Mumbai for which we already have around 25-30 people expected. I am sure it will be a better one 🙂 . Will be having these meets across other cities soon . Bangalore is next .

Overall Pune meet was a successful event and I would like to dedicate this to all the readers in Pune. It were readers who took the pain and took time to be there and have finally decided to continue these meetings in future and they are also looking at taking on various responsibilites to keep it ongoing . I would like each and everyone who came personally and it was amazing to see you all there . There is much more coming in future and you are the first one to be the part of it. Thanks 🙂 . Kindly acknowledge and share your experience in comments section .

Jagoinvestor meet in pune

Jagoinvestor meet in pune

Jagoinvestor meet in pune

Here are some of the short videos from meet , you can listen to speaker as well as some readers sharing their experience .


Please register here for future meets in your city . Any comments ?

Short NRI’s Guide to Banking , Insurance & Investments

Posted on by Jagoinvestor

There are a huge number of Indians who are working abroad or will go abroad one day and work there. Even you might go out of the country one day and become an NRI, so here’s a very short, to the point guide for NRI investments.

Today we discuss the most important NRI investment options and we’ll focus on four things – Basic Banking Accounts, Insurance, Mutual Funds, and Shares. That’s all.  The rules and information here are basic, but further study can be very detailed. Let’s quickly look at some important concepts every person should know. Even if you are not an NRI, you can at least advice your other friends 🙂 The first step every NRI should take, is to get the correct Banking accounts opened. Here are the options:

What is an NRE account?

NRE bank account is an external savings bank account opened for Non-resident Indians and hence called Non-Resident External account. Any money lying in the NRE account can be taken outside the country or in other words, the money lying in an NRE account is fully repatriable. This money can be converted into any foreign currency and can be remitted outside the country. For opening these accounts, the funds are required to be remitted to India through any bank from the country of residence of the prospective account holder. The accounts may be maintained in any form e.g. savings, current, recurring or fixed deposit account, etc. (How to find best Fixed Deposits in India)

What is an NRO account?

NRO bank account is an ordinary saving bank account opened for Non-resident Indians. This is why it is known as the Non-Resident Ordinary account. You open an NRO account when you want to transfer money from your overseas bank account to an Indian account in Indian Rupees. The money lying in the NRO account cannot be taken outside the country or in other words, the money lying in the NRO account isn’t repatriable. This is can be in form of Fixed Deposit accounts also (compare rates)

What is an FCNR account?

A FCNR account is a Fixed Deposit account with maturities of minimum 1 yr to maximum 5 yrs of tenure. FCNR stands for Foreign Currency Non-Resident (Bank) Account. The money in this account is always maintained in foreign currency, so it does not carry a currency risk (your $10,000 is always worth $10,000). The money lying in a FCNR account can be taken outside the country (or in other words, it is repatriable.)  Deposits in these accounts can be made by remitting funds from abroad.

Comparison of Table

Criteria
 MORE
 NRO FCNR
Account type
 Saving , Current or
Fixed Deposits account
 Saving , Current or
Fixed Deposits account
   Fixed Deposit
only
Money maintained in which currency Rupees
 Rupees
 Any of U.S. Dollar, Pound Sterling, Euro, Australian Dollar, Canadian Dollar
Repatriable
 (can money be taken outside the country)
 Yes
 No
 Yes
Money can be
Deposited from 		From Abroad through Bank account
 India or Abroad
 From Abroad through Bank account
Tax
 Exempt
 Taxable
 Exempt
Joint Account with Indian Residents
 No
 Yes
 Yes
Suitable for
 NRI’s whose income source is only from abroad NRI’s how have income source from both India as well as Abroad
 NRI’s who dont want to want to take currency risk

 

Can NRI take Insurance?

Yes, NRIs can buy Insurance in India; however they have to be present in India, while taking the Insurance. They should, therefore, plan for buying the insurance when they are on a trip to India. One important point, is that the premiums should be paid from NRE account, if the maturity value is to be repatriable, else only the partial amount will be repatriable,(for which premiums were paid from NRE account.) One has to make sure, they have all the necessary documents in place before they come to buy insurance.

Documents are

  • PAN Card
  • Income Address proof
  • Overseas Proof of Address
  • Proof of Income  (Salary slip, Bank Statement or ITR for last 3 yrs)
  • you will also have to fill a separate form called NRI Questionnaire-Annexure II

NRI investment in  Shares ?

Steps required by NRI’s to start trading in Stock Markets

  1. Apply for a PAN card (you can do it online.) You will get it within a week.
  2. Open an NRE/NRO account. You will require this account to fund money for your stock market transactions. Make sure you choose the account carefully, depending on your requirement (Repatriable/Non-Repatriable basis etc.)
  3. Apply for a general approval for investment in Indian Stock Market through it’s designated bank branch, this is called PIS (Portfolio Investment Scheme) (PIS rules  in detail)
  4. Once you have a PAN card, you’ll have to open a Demat account with any bank or a brokerage firm – you will require this for trading.
  5. Finally, you need to have an online stock market trading account for investing in the stock market directly. Generally, you can get a combo Trading + Demat account at the same place.

Note that NRI’s are not allowed to do intra-day trading (can’t buy and sell on the same day)

NRI investment in Mutual Funds

NRIs can invest in all Indian mutual funds, except in funds promoted by Asset Management Companies based in the U.S. (Fidelity, Franklin Templeton and HSBC.) The payment can be made from any of the NRE/NRO/FCNR accounts. If they make payments from NRE/FCNR account, then it can be on a repatriable basis (They can take the profit and principal out of the country.) But, if they make payment from NRO account then it will be on non-repatriable basis. However, the dividends can be on repatriated. No prior or extra permission needs to be taken from RBI for this. This is allowed by default. There is no tax on dividend income, and long-term capital gains tax is zero in India when investing in Indian equity mutual funds.

Jagoinvestor Group meets every month

Posted on by Jagoinvestor

It has been an excellent journey so far and we have to build a great community of readers who want to learn and understand the importance of personal finance. We have readers who are ready to learn much more if given a chance and they will if they are provided more support and platform.

So whats next? I have decided to take this blog to next level, so I have decided to form groups of enthusiastic people who are ready to learn at different levels and also want to join this “Jagoinvestor” movement and help to spread financial literacy. So we will group meets in different cities (Read Update). We will start from Bangalore first as I am in Bangalore. Later we will extend it to all the major cities in India like Mumbai, Delhi, Chennai, Pune, Hyderabad, Ahmedabad, Kolkatta etc.

Update

As I will be in Pune this coming weekend (Sat and Sun) and in Mumbai one day (preferably Saturday), We will start off these groups in Pune and Mumbai with whatever number we have, will choose one lead there and let’s kick off this idea fast :). I am sure we will have 15-20+ each place :). And we will start the group in Bangalore in July (as I will be in Bangalore only after June).

Note: As there are many readers from the Bay Area in the US (Sunnyvale / San Fransisco / San Jose). Readers there can also make the group (even 5 is ok), I have included Bay Area in Registration form Below.

What will happen in these Meets?

  • We will meet offline in person and build a community that will share their knowledge, ideas about a variety of topics that we discuss here on the blog.
  • We will also cover one focused topic in the form of presentation or session by any volunteer or expert in every meeting, it can be for 30-60 min long.
  • Discuss various strategies to invest money in the stock market (only after some meets, when more people are interested)
  • Discuss various topics like how to make better Real estate deals, tips, and tricks in investing which are not known generally to investors.
  • Build presentations and other content that can be shared back on the blog to all the readers.
  • Take up some research topic and then brain storm on the idea and find out why’s  and how’s (example, BUY OR RENT ? )
  • How to plan all major aspects of financial life in the best way and be self-dependent

Current Registrations

(Changes dynamically with every Entry)

Any thing more?

This will be an informal meet which will start from the cafe’s or odd places and later we can think about how to formalize it more in a better way. There will be leads from each city who can take up the responsibilities so that it can function independently. Each city will have the main lead of the group who can be the main person in the group and take the responsibility of the meets. The meets will only be on weekends (2-3 hrs)  so that everyone can join. In the start we will start this only in Bangalore (with me leading all the meets) and let’s see how this whole stuff goes, we can then take up this group meet idea to other cities once the situation permits and there are enough readers interested. Below is a registration form for registering yourself with jagoinvestor for these group meets, we will soon start these groups in all the cities once we get more than 10 interested people in any city. Please share your views and how we can make this concept a success.

Register

Introducing JagoInvestor Financial Calculators

Posted on by Jagoinvestor

Readers, I was working on building some basic calculators over the last month . They are ready to use now . The calculators are very basic and have a bare minimum look and feel , but works !! .

Please use them and provide any changes you feel should happen . one important point you should note is that all the figures are approx and the numbers you get might differ a bit from other calculators on net as the formula’s used might be on yearly compounding or payments have been considered at the end of the period rather than start . So don’t put much thinking on the exact numbers , take them as a general approx figures , anyways how does it matter if your retirement corpus is 4.53 crores or 4.58 crores !! 🙂

Financial calculators

Look at this page for all the calculators listed at one place . Below is the list of all the calculators

Provide your Feedback Please . What can be done for Improvements ? Any other calculators you want ?

Business Bhaskar Copied my GFactor Concept without permission

Posted on by Jagoinvestor

Some days back I had written about GFactor concept for choosing a Financial Product based on 4 factors and formulating it in mathematics , Recently one of the writers for Business Bhaskar has copied the original idea of GFactor and republished it with same name “GFactor” and all the other names like “Trap Factor”, “R/R Factor” etc, without any permission from me .

This is not a general republishing of a general concept like SIP or Life Insurance that one can just change the wording’s and rewrite the same concept . It’s just the translation of the original idea and hence copyright violation. I have mailed the editor of the newspaper to look at it . The article was published in the online edition (Link) as well as print media (Newspaper Link) .

Update Jun 1 , 2010 :  Business Bhaskar has resolved this issue with me and apolosized to me for whatever happened, they will republish the article with due credit to me .

Comments , please share your views on this issue ? How appropriate is it to copy content and translate it without permission ?

How to think about Retirement Planning (Video)

Posted on by Jagoinvestor

Retirement Planning is one of the most important aspects of financial planning. Here is a 3 part video series on Retirement planning which gives you a good idea of how to plan for it and how to think about retirement planning . Look at how to 6 Steps of doing Retirement Planning by yourself

Part 1


Part 2


Part 3

A very good book every one should read is “Retire Rich Invest” written by P V Subramanyam . Give your comments 🙂

Learning from Comments (Part 2)

Posted on by Jagoinvestor

Do you read comments ? There is a huge amount of discussion doing on in comments section, however many readers do not find time or interest to dig into the comments and follow the discussions, I would say comments have more knowledge than the article itself , as there are personal experiences and knowledge from many different readers, there is a threaded discussion on some topic in comments, which are more lively and engaging. So if you are just reading articles and not comments, you are missing a lot of things . So I went through some articles comment one by one and consolidated some learning and facts for my readers . ( See  Learning from Comments Part 1)

learning from Comments

1) Partha Iyenger shares what will happen to your mutual funds units if you bought it from Demat account and Company went bankrupt

If your online distributer Financial institution and asset management companies in India are regulated by RBI and SEBI. They constantly monitor the balance sheets and other relevant data of these firms and the respective regulators have put together necessary steps to ensure that the investors are protected by taking corrective steps. For eg.. when global trust bank collapsed, it was merged with Oriental Bank of Commerce and clients/depositors who had funds/securities in dmat accounts were able to get it back or transferred to the new Oriental Bank of Commerce account.. The process takes a while but you would get it. In India, we have excellent systems and process (much better than developed world) partly due to conservative policies framed by RBI and others regulatory bodies. For more information on the GTB scam related to deposits and demat accounts, you can read the link here . Another interesting aspect is that your order verification (on equity and etf purchases/sales) is posted on the NSE site on the same day. Your can ask your broker for the unique order number for the trade executed by you. You can verify the stock, price, qty, etc through this unique order number in the nse site. The orders are archived for a period of 8 years!

If am not wrong, NSE is probably only one or very few exchanges to have this facility for investors. This is a valid documentary proof for transactions done by you, which you can use in case your broker fails to send you the contract notes or ledger statements or if there are any discrepancies. Apart from this, the clearing corporation ensures that investors are protected from defaults by members by acting as third-party and your transactions are cleared. For more information you can read the RBI circular here . Next, all asset management companies have to follow strict guidelines in terms of their financials as prescribed by SEBI. The foremost criteria is 40% of net worth of the AMC has to be brought in by the sponsor. A sponsor is a company/consortium/institution which would like to float the asset management company. It also appoints trustees who oversee the amcs. The trustees have the authority to monitor and replace the asset management company , if they fail to perform their duties effectively at any point of time.. This is apart from the regulators and government.. Of course, one needs to be more careful while choosing your broker and investment companies and constantly monitor news and events related to the company.. If at any point of time you get uncomfortable, you could pull out your investments and park it in other stronger firms. (Link)

2) Milind Kotibhaskar shares his experience with a ULIP Agent (over email with me)

Many years back, I was studying in the college and staying in hostel. One evening, one decent looking young man entered my room. He told me that he was from my home town and gave me few references. He thus established a good rapport with me. Then he gently told me that this night he has to leave for Delhi ( or Bangalore or such place ) to attend a job interview. But he has lost his train ticket and he does not have money to buy new one. This job is a lifetime opportunity for him, but he will not be able to make it due to lack of money. So would I be so kind as to lend him some money so that he can travel and attend the interview ? He looked sincere and genuine. I gave him whatever money I had. He thanked me and said that he will return my money as soon as possible. Later when I told this to my friends, they started laughing at me and said I will never see him again in my life, and that is what happened.

Years after, 6 months back, ABN Amro people visited me ( I have salary account with them ). All dressed nicely ( tie and all that ). They wanted to sell me ULIP. They made impressive speech, talked about the returns that I would get etc. All this to a fellow who has crossed 50. I think these people were no different from the conman that duped me in the hostel. I know mutual fund agents who persuaded their clients to sell their existing MF schemes and buy NFOs ( agents used to get very good commission on NFOs ). I know LIC agents who ask their clients to surrender existing policies and buy new one so that these agents can meet their annual targets and to earn hefty commissions on Insurance policies . I feel sorry for the conman who took few rupees from me, and if caught in the act, would have faced police action. Instead he should have become an LIC agent or ULIP agent. He then could have conned more people without fear of police action and got more money in return.

3) Partha Iyenger shares How Real Estate prices gets manipulated by handful of big players .

During the period of Nov 2007-January 2008, large number of high net worth investors got carried away by the bull market assuming that they could make quick returns by booking profits when the sensex moves to 25,000. A large sum of the money allocated for real estate investments (in parts or full) by these investors were moved to stock markets and commodity markets. When the markets crashed immediately, which they did not expect, they were struck. The couldn’t pull out the monies, due to losses. The real estate market which was also on a bull run till then, found the buyers who had shown interest earlier [some of them made advance payments], specifically in premium apartments, backing out. Read Real Estate Returns in India

Hence the Mumbai markets went through a period of correction (though the cycle was shorter) and picked up again gradually when the markets started its rally since April 09..In fact, some of the developers to speculate [through leverage as well] in the stock markets and move it back to their business.. As usual timing is very difficult and that’s why one of the problems faced in the last two years by real estate markets is ‘cash’.. Which means not completing projects in time!

The single word for this phenomenon is ‘liquidity’. I am afraid you could get reliable statistics on real estate, since India lacks transparency[ be it in title deeds or transaction mechanisms] and we are yet to have real estate investment trust vehicles or REITS which would help track data and give a better picture. It should happen soon… (Link)

4) Pramod Moudgill shares his excellent insight on how to look at Fund houses and Fund managers

a) Whether it has some discipline and process set for investments or it is only a One man show i.e. fund manager is calling all the shots.  The former is always better.

b) Whether the fund is keeping an eye on the funds if they are being true to their mandate and the fund manager is not deviating from the mandate for the sake of returns.

c) Whether the motive of fund house is to make money for investors first for the long-term or just to Raise it’s AUM via a flurry of NFOs.

d) What is the performance and association of the investment team with the fund house. Is it changing fund managers every year ? if so then a big problem.

e) I dont know about others but to me the important point is the credibility of the parent company.

Let us evaluate fund houses on above parameters

1) Sundaram has a strict cap that none of its diversified funds will invest more than 5% in a single stock (Except select focus – Its mandate is to remain focus), At FT the  stock selection is done by a team of experts and the same is true with HDFC. These things make sure that one person can not skew the investments to his will.

2) Sandip Sabharwal is arguably the shrewdest fund manager India have ever seen. If you see the portfolio of SBI funds then you can observe that all the diversified funds had 90% stocks in common, so a global fund a contra fund a midcap fund and others were same despite their different mandates. Now look at DSP top 100 it doesnt have a single midcap stock, DSP midcap not a single large cap. Same with HDFC Top 200 and Sundaram midcap or Growth fund. When I invest in a large cap fund I know that I will be geting a large cap fund for sure. FT blue-chip and Prima do not have a single stock in common. Look at some good Equity Mutual funds

3) DSP has only seven equity funds and is winning so many awards based on that only. HDFC has only one sectoral fund. Sundaram recently has launched some new funds but if you compare these houses are conservative with new launching. They have every kind of funds and that is good. Look at Tata , Birla, Reliance they work like NFO Factory. The sole aim is to get money via NFOs.

4) Fund managers, – Prashant Jain is with HDFC for 10 Years, Naganath with DSP for a decade, Sukumar ans Siva Subramaniam with FT for over 12 Years. other that Anup Bhaskar no fund manager has left Sundaram in a long time. Can others (of course Nilesh Shah and Madhu Kela are there) boasts of such long relations.

5) Finally the corporate governance, Check yourself about the credibility of Sundaram and HDFC. Other two are internationally acclaimed.

OK that is the criteria I used, There are some others which may be fitting in these parameters but then performance is foremost and you can check about the consistency for these funds over many years. It has not been a flue. Keep a watch on IDFC and ICICI. Former is transforming itself and the latter is relatively new. Somehow I feel that 2010 will belong to these two guys. In the first quarter fall they have shown character. (Link)

Comments please , Did you like these comments and the learning ?